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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Jody Aliesan 
May 9, 1996  
Cassette 5, Side 2 
 
 
Julie O'Grady  00:02 
Okay, so we're continuing on tape five side B.  
 
Jody Aliesan  00:05 
I suppose here's a little side story, as far as the chart is concerned, because I had the wrong, uh, 
chart for a long time, up until, like, about a year ago, it was a year ago birthday. Because, um, 
when I asked my mother for the time of my birth, she made something up. And I don't know why 
I should have believed her. I mean, I should have gone back and looked at the birth certificate, 
but I just accepted it, because I just keep believing that what she's going to tell me will be the 
truth.  [Laughs.] After all these years, it's really a--it's really a joke on me. So for the longest 
time, my chart didn't fit me, and it-- And I tried to, I really tried to learn from it and understand 
why it didn't feel right. And then when it was redrawn with my right birth time, [?damn?], there 
it was. But one of the things in the chart that is--that is now accurate, I was born, for the record, 
at 2:49am, April 22, 1943, in Kansas City, Missouri, is that I have Mars in Pisces.  
 
Jody Aliesan  00:05 
And, uh, what I recognized from that is a truth that has allowed me to relax into who I am. 
Because most of my life, I have stood up for what I believed and confronted what, um, I didn't 
believe or I thought was wrong or unjust, and I've made efforts to reason with people who have, 
in my perception, been coming from a place of hate and prejudice, out of the faith that with 
information, they would change their perspective. And that's another, I suppose, loss of 
innocence to find out that that doesn't change anything at all, and doesn't have anything to do 
with how well I'm communicating, or that I'm not finding the right way to communicate. It's 
beyond me, and it-it took a lot to really understand that what I considered my tools and the most 
powerful things that I had were words, sometimes are totally irrelevant, and certainly in 
situations like this, words, reason, information, all of that is totally irrelevant, so that the 
strongest weapons I have, uh, have no power, under those circumstances.  
 
Jody Aliesan  02:26 
So I found that, um, I'm a better fighter for other people than I am for myself, but I'm not a good 
fighter at all, period. And that what I had to realize about Mars being in Pisces was that I'm 
probably not going to be heard or taken seriously or perceived as powerful personally, even 
though I do these things better in writing than I do, um, just as myself: a small, soft-spoken 
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female. I'm learning that the best thing I can do in situations, especially pertaining to my own 
life, is walk away. And that's a hard thing to come to, because I've always felt that that was 
somehow a defeat and a failure, and I'm realizing that that may be the best thing possible. 
Certainly for me, personally.  
 
Jody Aliesan  03:25 
And I look back upon the times in my life when I've been, um, bullied or assaulted, or, um, one 
way or the other, mistreated or shouted down or-or tried to manipulate me, and I've stood up to 
them and tried to fight back in my own way, which is usually becoming very calm and rational 
and trying to explain and all the rest of it, that I just bring more upon myself. And-and I'm really 
starting to learn about the power and the strength that comes in recognizing, assessing the 
situation, and leaving it, and knowing there's nothing I can do about it. I've had a feeling a long 
time, especially after my experience of the rape, that was backed up in many situations, a belief 
that I will not be able to get someone to stop hurting me. And now I'm realizing that, uh, that's 
probably true, and the thing to do is to get out of the situation. And certainly in the rape situation, 
it was impossible to get out of it. And I did the best I could do, which was to fight back and get 
beaten up and all the rest of that, but there was no way to get out of it. But most situations, there-
- I can turn around and turn my face in another direction and go there. I'm not in a corner. I'm not 
up against the wall. It's my choice to walk out of it, walk away. 
 
Jody Aliesan  04:59 
When I was a child, I read, uh, Felix Salten's "Bambi." I remember talking about the insipid and 
saccharine and, um, totally ruined, uh, Walt Disney "Bambi." Patronizing and simplistic as 
[inaudible] treatment of animals. But Felix Salten's book, which gave the deer and all of the 
animals great dignity. And in that story, Bambi has become separated from his mother, and he's 
alone in a clearing, and suddenly a great stag comes. Someone that Bambi never saw or 
[inaudible], because the male deer are usually away by themselves. Um, and Bambi doesn't know 
that this is his father. And the-the-the stag looks at Bambi, and-and what is communicated is that, 
uh, Bambi is feeling afraid, and the stag says, assessing the situation immediately, "How did you 
learn how to be alone?" And when I read that, I realized that that's what I needed to be able to do, 
and that was what I was given to learn, is how to be alone.  
 
Jody Aliesan  06:34 
And I knew that I needed to take care of myself from a relatively early age, and then through the 
many moves that we made as a family, and through the feelings of being different, and the 
perspective that that gives a person as an observer of others, um, and through a whole 
constellation of experiences, like when I was in college and I went for a quarter to some remote 
islands in the North Sea, a self-chosen project to gather folk literature from rural people there, 
which sort of came around full circle when I went to Ireland last fall for two-and-a-half months 
to walk the terrain of the famine and to gather stories that have survived over the 150 years. 
 
Jody Aliesan  07:28 
But also, a lot of experiences like being alone in the-in the steam tent when I had asthma as a 
little girl, the asthma I recognize now, from what I read, a-a result of my father's very heavy 
smoking, where there was at least one, or maybe a couple of cigarettes left burning in ashtrays all 
the time. And-and the experience of going under with ether when I was small for tonsillectomies-
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-and tonsillectomy, and two [inaudible], which now I realize were also related, according to 
health people, to living with secondhand smoke. And other minor surgeries, including a 
relatively recent one for what turned out to be benign gynecological tumors. And then things 
like, uh, the rape experience and assaults, and, um, a couple of times when I've been in car 
wrecks, both times when the car turned over, and once, I had a skull fracture from that. And then 
another time I threw myself down the stairs at college, in the stacks in the library because I 
thought I was pregnant. And then I had two sterilizations. The first one failed, and-and there was 
an abortion, and then a second one. And all these times of going under with anesthesia, 
everywhere, from that first childhood ether to, uh, all the series of changes in what they give you 
for anesthetic.  
 
Jody Aliesan  08:55 
And that experience of going under, which I think must-- It's akin to the edge of sleep, and I have 
a feeling that there must be some relationship to what we may feel when we die, too. And then 
just those--wh-- And one of the things about it is that you're totally alone with whatever your life 
or death is in that moment, it all comes to a head. And then the same, uh, uh, when I was in 
Ireland this last fall, I broke my leg on a mountain, uh, by myself, and just realizing that no one 
knew I was there, and no one would ever hear me shouting, and that-that I would either just die 
there or had to find some strength from somewhere, and adrenaline took over for that to get 
down. But it all, it all, uh-- It's not exactly like drowning, I suppose, but your life does kind of, 
uh, run by, and some sense of why it's happened and whether you made any--you made any 
sense of it, or you did-you did the right things with it, all our recognitions of remorse or 
embarrassment about when you didn't do the right things with it.  
 
Jody Aliesan  09:45 
But I would say that the-the most profound and most difficult and most alone experience that I've 
had in my whole life was, um, that two-and-a-half years of the clinical depression. And if 
anything causes you to decide whether you want to live or die, it's going to be something like 
that. And-and there's no way that you're not totally alone with it. So in those times, um, I have 
found even, for instance, with the depression, where you feel as-as weak and helpless and 
hopeless as-as you ever could, there's something inside that's strong enough to keep going, even 
though it knows it's-it's totally wrong.  
 
Jody Aliesan  10:59 
I mentioned that I've been in four major relationships. It's interesting that they began on--one 
each of the two solstices and the two equinoxes, or one of them was within a week of one of the 
solstices, and the two marriages were both on equinoxes. The two marriages also lasted each four 
years. And I'd say that three of those four relationships were mistakes, and I endured them longer 
than I should have, but I endured them until it was very clear what was happening, and then I got 
out because I knew I would be all right alone. I may not be good judges of who is best for me to 
be with and who knows what their perspectives are. I may not be that skilled in the relationships 
of that intimate and sexual nature, but I'm not afraid of being alone, and I'm grateful for that.  
 
Jody Aliesan  12:04 
And I'm-- From childhood, I've known that inside me, there's a refuge and a garden that I can go 
to, and under my feet, there's something I can stand on, that I can trust. Now I feel very blessed 
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to have that. I would say that, um, with the question about summarizing my life, I would say that 
I have felt a resistance to settle for any simple or easy definitions or descriptions of myself, 
resisted and defied them when they come along. Generalizations. Someone's easy knowledge, 
um, or their unwillingness to-to know me better, um, and whether these perceptions are positive 
or negative. That's very scary, for example, to be on a pedestal. It's very scary to have people 
have, uh, unconditional or, um, simplified positive notions about me, because they know that 
there's nowhere to go from a pedestal except down. You know, I'd much rather be known for, 
um, the negative complexities, the difficulties, um, blunderings and mistakes and all the rest of it 
than to have to live up to somebody's romanticized positive image.  
 
Jody Aliesan  13:28 
Uh--My grandfather--I'm sorry, I-- I said that, probably because last night, I had a dream that my 
father and my grandfather took me for a ride in the car, and I woke up wondering if it meant that 
I was going to die soon, because they seemed to be getting along, which they didn't do in-in their 
lives. My grandfather even kicked us out of his house once. I guess I must have been in, in high 
school, because of some small thing my father said, in his very unthreatening way, politically, 
that my grandfather disagreed with. But anyway, they were having a good time and laughing and 
talking. And I've often thought that on the other side, in the next life, a lot of this impurity and 
[inaudible] crap and garbage gets blown out of the way, and it's easier.  
 
Jody Aliesan  14:38 
At any rate, what I was going to say before got slipped in was that my grandmother, his wife, 
who my father said he murdered, not literally, but by mistreatment. She, as far as the death 
certificate is concerned, died of cancer. My father was very intuitive about the kinds of things 
that can cause cancer. It was breast cancer, and it metastasized. She died when I was four, and 
my mother held me over her casket to see her body, which I actually credit her for, because she 
had this old-fashioned, old-world and, um, almost peasant notion that children should learn about 
death, and-and you don't conceal things and hide things from children. I'm grateful for that.  
 
Jody Aliesan  15:43 
What happened to me because of it, was a-a feeling that if things weren't good between me and 
someone else, I had to fix it soon, even if I, um, abdicated the situation or, uh, compromised my 
own position in terms of, uh, whether or not I was right about something, even if I ended up 
humbling myself inappropriately. An important thing was to fix it, because one of us could die at 
any moment, and then it would be unresolved, or, uh the last conversation or whatever will have 
been negative. Now, I'm comfortable with the possibility of ending any particular day, and-and 
my life, generally speaking, with no resolution, a number of important things not being resolved. 
I'm, uh, much more comfortable with ambiguity and not, um, compromising myself, or, um, 
letting myself down in order to fix something in a unilateral way, just on one side, when it isn't 
fair to me. 
 
Jody Aliesan  17:15 
And then the other thing that came from seeing my grandmother's body was, um, the impetus to 
really be alive while I'm alive. And to live in an active way, which doesn't necessarily show on 
the outside, but living, uh, fully and consciously as I can and not wasting life or being dead in 
life, using it up, not missing anything, doing my best, just for its own sake, um, earning my 
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wage, doing my part, contributing my piece to the whole thing out of the assumption that I'm not 
here to be given to and to take, but to add to the whole of what human beings are, and to the 
conversation that we all have about what it means to be alive. At the same time, learning that at 
times--and this is a hard one for me--when I have no other choice, it's important to know how to 
[?recede? receive?] and that that's not a weakness or failure, and that way this whole circle of 
energy turns around.  
 
Jody Aliesan  18:38 
So ultimately, I guess underneath it all, there's a sense that I live with and that I have lived with--
even in the times when it seemed to be most completely extinguished, and that depression is an 
example of it, it was almost snuffed out--that there is a meaning and a reason why I'm here, and 
that things go the best when I, um, connect myself with that, and-and I'm willing to-to accept and 
go with that. It doesn't mean it's necessarily, that things go most easily, but that they will go the 
best in terms of evolution or understanding, or, or what they call personal growth, uh, but that at 
least it will be clearer and simpler, and that happiness is really defined by that clarity and 
awareness and, and, uh, uncomplicated and undivided peace of mind, even if that's happening in 
the midst of-of pain and difficulty, because life isn't happy.  
 
Jody Aliesan  19:44 
I mean, that's what I mean to say, is we have this notion that if we're not, quote, "happy," then 
something's wrong and it's our fault, rather than accepting that life includes a lot of pain and 
suffering and difficulty. But if that can be lived with that peace of mind and clarity and 
understanding that that's part of being human, then there's, uh, um, something to stand on.  
 
Jody Aliesan  20:09 
So I guess that's basically all I had to say. Um, I just wrote a couple of phrases down here, just 
the feeling that all right, I just turned 53, so this is--I would hope, anyway--um, a tape that 
represents a life in progress, a snapshot of-of this particular moment, the best I can do to describe 
the way I understand it so far. And um, it has to be considered unfinished, not only because I 
hope I live a while longer, but also, I-I keep understanding more. And some of the things that 
seem to be true to me now might come clear when I have a different perspective on it later.  
 
Jody Aliesan  20:57 
And I suppose that the only epitaph I could come up with at this point, uh, for when I leave this 
life, whenever that is--and I won't have a gravestone, I've asked to be cremated and then my 
ashes scattered upon Point Disney on Waldron [Island]. But if there were an imaginary 
gravestone, I guess I would want it to have the translation of my last name. It's a name that I 
chose and changed legally on December 30, 1970. It happens to be an old English word. It's an 
infinitive, so it's an ongoing thing rather than a static, established state of things. It's fluid. Um. 
And it means "to set free." And I carry that not because I am free, or-or have set myself free from 
so many things I keep learning about or blundering into, but as a kind of mantra to match myself 
against, to pick up and hold myself up to, um, not only myself personally, but what I'm doing in 
life, and the lives of other people, too. 
 
Jody Aliesan  22:22 
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It's um, I happen to like learning. I like school. And when Elisabeth Kübler-Ross said once, 
when I went with her to see her with a friend, that life is--the lives are a series of schools, and we 
go on learning, I suppose some people could have flinched at that and said, "Oh, no, more 
schools." But since I like school, I like that idea, and lessons aren't--that don't have the meaning 
to me of "I'm going to teach you a lesson," but the next assignment, and I've enjoyed what I've 
given so far, especially once I get through and understand what they're meant to teach me. So I 
guess that my name is part of my lifelong lesson. And I would like to thank everybody involved 
with this project, especially Julie O'Grady for giving me the opportunity to look over my life and 
talk about it a bit, and I hope that what I've said will be of some use to somebody, someday. God 
bless.  
 
Julie O'Grady  23:37 
Okay, I'm bringing the interview to an end and turning machine off. [Recorder clicks off.] 
 